ravan | On Abuse Within Community/Subcultures

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On Abuse Within Community/Subcultures

In another post on someone else's journal,

mac posted this link: The Revolution Starts at Home: Confronting Intimate Violence Within Activist Communities. It mentions a book that I currently can't afford to order, but also has a link to an excellent PDF of the zine version.

It is an intense read, but very valuable, IMO. So far I'm only a third of the way through it. One takeaway I have is something I knew at a gut level, but didn't really follow all the way through: Just because a person is an activist doesn't mean they automatically are not capable of being an abuser.

I know, peripherally, of incidents in various subcultures/communities I'm involved in that are not pretty. What I hadn't really internalized is how much it happens, but is ignored *within the community*. Sure, the outside will take a hint and make it a federal case, but ignoring it within isn't the solution either.

BTW, for those who wonder why I am bothering with any of this, since it's not my fight? Because I can. Because if someone hates me because of what I say on the net, it wouldn't be the first time. Because I have this obnoxious tendency to ask "Oh, really?" and be a bit sparing with my trust and credence. Not everyone whose journal I follow do I like or trust, either.

I'm sorry if I don't conform to your idea of what a pagan/feminist/queer/gimp/fan should be like. I'm not trying to please you or conform, and pushing me to do so just gets my back up and me being contrary. Call it crazy if you like.

But if I can inspire someone to think past their knee-jerk, then it's worth it.

That's why I've chosen to highlight this link/document - because it has made *me* think.

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I spent most of last night catching up on the little rape drama. See, I get angry when I read the post replies attacking you over on lj, saying you were Kynn et al. The posts were not only nasty, but also downright childish in their name calling. I suppose I will now be included in that mix. Well, good! 'cause you were absolutely correct in your analysis of the original post by Alexandraerin. I also despise trial by Internet or mob justice. It is wrong and ruins people's lives needlessly.
These judgmental jerks do not know you. You always fight for the underdog, and do it very well. I'm proud of you for that and for the way you think. I may not always agree with you as you well know. Still and all I will fight to my dying breath for your right to think and post that way. I love you and that you are not a sheeple! Peace and Love to you and Datapard, Fuzzy too. Mamsan

The people claiming I'm Kynn make me laugh, actually. My ego isn't as big, for one.

The reason I bitched about how this all was going down was the sheer level of spite that was flying around. The sheer amount of hate and pile-on, for someone that most of these people had never even met, was amazing! I've never met Kynn, BTW, don't want to, really. (I tend to avoid drama people in real life.)

Don't bother with correcting the idiots, BTW. It just feeds them, I fear. Now fandom and the various other communities that intersect with it just look a lot nastier and stupider.

After receiving a bunch of their anonymous ire, I went back over everything. I see why moofable wanted to out her for the rape. He wanted to legitimately complain about her actions and warn others. I don't know of any better way to do that for an online community. I don't think he wanted all the pile on. Also, while I can understand and agree with his exposing her actions and asking that she not be given accolades as a great feminist, I still don't think that the piling on is right. I don't see that Jack asked for that either.

One of the things that they have against you is your using the gender neutral pronouns when talking about trans gendered people. They got onto me for that as well. I didn't realize that it was an insult to use them. I would think it would be considered a compliment, and apparently it is definitely not.

With some of that fandom communtiy, anyone who is not in exactly the same situation cannot in any way understand it. Nor is anyone not in that exact situation qualified to comment. If you read the comments in my LJ journal you will see the whole overkill response. Let us just say it was an enlightening experience for me. The level of distrust evident in a supposedly open community is one thing that surprised me the most.

You know how open I am on the net, with my experiences as well as my feelings. I was told that I didn't understand how people were open and shared their feelings in the LJ community. If they only knew! Anyway, I have changed my mind and my position that Jack should not have outed Kynn for the rape. I still believe that the piling on and trial by Internet is wrong, but really don't know of any other way for Jack and Alexandraerin to warn people that Kynn did rape and doesn't live her life the way she talks as a feminist. He didn't ask people to punish her, just said that he didn't think she should be getting accolades as a feminist when she lived her life as she did and, apparently, still does. After really looking at what HE said, not what others piled on, and what Kynn said in her tweets et al I had to agree with him, but not with the others who piled on.

Anyway, it looks like Jack accomplished his goal and others are taking the warning to heart and treading carefully where Kynn is concerned, instead of taking all she says as gospel. Apparently she has a history of not treating others well. It looks like a lot of the SF fandom community and online community are wary of her too, judging by the number of commenters to my posts who chose to remain anonymous. Obviously they are not afraid of you or of me. That kind of leaves only one person they fear to have know they are commenting about or criticizing her. How sad!

Your sister keeps pushing me to get the grant done. You can imagine the effect that has on my progress. I do NOT like to be pushed. Thank you for not so doing. Her heart is in the right place, but darn if she doesn't piss me off when she tries to mother me ----and I know that is not at all how she means it. It's just how it hits me. (I may actually get the damned thing done in the next week or so, fine print and all --why they use 4 pt type on an application [fine print, I guess] is beyond me.) Love to you and data-pard, Fuzzy too -- Mamasan

So, about the gender neutral pronouns: No slam on trans folks at all, but I wanted to address meta issues, not get wrapped up in male, female, gender identity, and what's OK for guys isn't for gals, etc. Yes, I wanted to take the trans issue out - because I didn't think that there is one set of rules for cis and another set for trans, or one set of rules for gay, another for straight, and yet a third for bi. I wanted it to be ambiguous whether A, B and C were all male, all female, or some other mix - because a person's gender shouldn't damn matter when it comes to abuse.

If the whining trans community wants to whinge about having neutral pronouns used, they need to realize that the world is really not all about them. It's up to you what you want to call yourself, who you want to love, not me. I use neutral pronouns to describe cis, gay or bi relationships too, because I don't regard them as privileged.

I actually support what Jack has said, but I don't trust alexandraerin not to have her own agenda. She's the one who took it to trial by net, IMO.

Kynn has to live in her own head. I don't think I'd wish that on anyone.

Thanks for the link. I'll have a look at it, later. I know

mac from elsewhere, and she's good people.

Sorry to hear you wound-up in a flamefest. Remind you of our old USENET days any?

You're welcome. I just am passing it along.

It reminds me a little, although some of these folks are pikers. I am in part wearing my iconoclast hat, as usual.

It's been a long time since I've had someone try to claim that I'm someone else, though. That's funny as hell. For starters, anyone who knows me knows I'd never write a game revolving around relationships. It's just too funny.

Heh. What that flamewar needs is R. Michael Litchfield, and one of his devastating flames containing only insults beginning with the letter 'P,' or perhaps 'F.'

Also? I totally know you were always just Nina in disguise. That person Lori and I met in SJ was just a paid actor. *g.*

Wishing you well.

Human communities need to define themselves and one of the ways they do is what they AREN'T. In undefined communities, it's easier for the Less Ethical to cause problems because they know from EXPERIENCE that there are few consequences and so expect none. In fact, they're usually SHOCKED when they find folks NOT supporting them "Unconditionally".
One of the non-Theological things that drove me away from CR back in the late 80's-early 90's was the "tacit" Acceptance of complete Horseshite in the NAME of Inclusivity. One of my final straws was being repremanded by by Senior for NOT being Supportive of a Newbie who Beleived that Druids came from Atlantis, which was a colony of Space Beings that powered their ships with Quartz Crystals and Creative Visualizations. While I've had problems with Iassac Bonewittz over they yrs, I did, however like his Idea of Excellence insztead of the lowest common denominator. Sadly, that's the level of everything in general...
Cheers,
Pat

One of my final straws was being repremanded by by Senior for NOT being Supportive of a Newbie who Beleived that Druids came from Atlantis, which was a colony of Space Beings that powered their ships with Quartz Crystals and Creative Visualizations.

*headdesk*

Critical thinking skillz, we haz them...

How I Wish;>!One of the Many) things that bug me is how many Pagans Recons and Heathens are Willing to play the JCI card of Bait-N-Switch to get a Seeker to join them. "We don't want to scare them off" is probably the most oft used reason for Lying to Newbies about just about EVERYTHING. My fav was the head of my old kindred telling a Newb that Heathens don't "do" Animal Sacrifice, yet a couple weeks before we'd held a Husel in which the main course had been killed Repectfully. If she'd simply explained that a Traditional Blot was Killing the animal in a Respectful Sacred way, Honored then Eaten...I think the non Vegan would have Understood....
Cheers,
Pat

That's Atla-n'tyss. Don't leave out the punctuation marks; they're an important part of the Dru'idiq majiqal heritage.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Just remember to NOT tell them about the Atlantean Dolphin Masters until they reach the 17th Degree.

And whatever you do, DO NOT tell them the truth about the orgies.

Thing is, none of the pagan faiths I'm familiar with is a religion for the masses. The people we want to have joining us are the people who keep showing up despite our best efforts to discourage them. We want the people who test their beliefs, who practice with rigor.

Not the twits who will put credence in any silly belief, and twice on Sundays.

Unfortunately, some folks are sooo obsessed with being the Pagan or Heathen Jim Jones that they're willing to get anyone in. It's quantity they're Interested in, not quality. While I admit feeling disappointed when I'd only have a handful of folks at a workshop I'd teach at a moot or gathering, I'd rather have a couple really Interested instead of more "Magpies" out to gather more "shiny" experiences then flap away to the next...
Cheers,
Pat

Would you believe --- I heard almost exactly the same sentiment, with "latest" or "better" substituted for "Pagan" or "Heathen" before "Jim Jones," at a meeting of protestant christian church leaders in the late 1970's and more recently from a man at a meeting about increasing Lions International Club membership about four months ago. The quality vs. quantity problem plagues all groups with a vision and mission tenets it seems. One can easily add "church," "christian sect," "club" or "service organization" after your last word "next." I find that fact both ironic and interesting. It says something about the human condition and our need to be a part of groups with a set of rules or tenets and a mission, be that a form of religion, a belief system, or a service (to others) club. Heck, I've even heard similar for a chamber of commerce branch!

Thank you for reminding me!
Peace ----Ellen

With themselves as "The Lawgiver";>. Like my favorite critcisms of both SCA-type org and Reincarnation Enthusiast: everyone's always Nobility....one ones the guy emptying the chamberpots....
Cheers,
Pat

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On Abuse Within Community/Subcultures

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